Sign up today for an exclusive discount along with our 30-day GUARANTEE — Love us or leave, with your money back! Click here to become a part of our growing community and learn how to stop gambling with your investments. We will teach you to BE THE HOUSE — Not the Gambler!

Click here to see some testimonials from our members!

Fabulous Friday Finish


That's how much our Long-Term Portfolio has gained since our March 18th review and it's only April 9th!  We only had $634,785 worth of positions on the 18th and now they are $730,400 (the rest is over $1M in CASH!!!) so that is a completely insane gain of 15% in 3 weeks.  That's an annulized return rate of 260% – do you really think this is sustainable?  

I know we keep trying to cash in the LTP but then we keep deciding the positions are perfect and we certainly can't argue with the results but the whole thing simply has to collapse at some point.  It's the market that is causing this idiocy – our strategies just eggagerate the gains as we use options to leverage the upside momentum and, since the broad market never goes down and we tend to make sensible value picks – we make outized gains in our virtual portfolios.   

Gains are, of course, lovely on paper but you have to make sure you keep them and that's the trick as the Fear of Missing Out on a contiued rally tends to keep us from sensibly cashing in our gains.  We're 2/3 CASH!!! in the LTP and most of our portfolios so imagine what we'd be making if we were gung-ho bullish but we learned our lesson in 2000 and 2008 that rallies can end in a snap and you can't simply unwind your positions at the first hint of trouble – that's just not the way it works.  

So we hedge using our Short-Term Portfolio (STP) and, as I mentioned on Wednesday, that $200,000 portfolio was down 3.1% and now, with the extended rally, it's down 15.2%, with the rally knocking us down by about $26,000 so the net gain of our paired portfolios is "only" about $70,000 for the month.  

What that means though, is that the hedges are on sale and, since we just made net $70,000, we should certainly be putting a portion of that money to work buying more hedges.  The STP positions we have at the moment gave us about $500,000 worth of downside protection but now we have $95,615 in additional positions to protect, don't we?  

Still, we don't have to go crazy as the rally shows no signs of slowing and we are adequately covered so we'll just be looking to make small maintennence adjustments to our positions.  For example, we are up 65.3% on the short SQQQ 2023 $30 calls we sold on November 6th:

SQQQ Short Call 2023 20-JAN 30.00 CALL [SQQQ @ $11.27 $-0.37] -100 11/6/2020 (651) $-78,500 $7.85 $-5.13 $-0.54     $2.73 $-0.18 $51,250 65.3% $-27,250
SQQQ Long Call 2022 21-JAN 10.00 CALL [SQQQ @ $11.27 $-0.37] 200 2/8/2021 (287) $104,000 $5.20 $-1.85     $3.35 $-0.20 $-37,000 -35.6% $67,000
SQQQ Short Call 2023 20-JAN 30.00 CALL [SQQQ @ $11.27 $-0.37] -100 2/4/2021 (651) $-45,000 $4.50 $-1.78     $2.73 $-0.18 $17,750 39.4% $-27,250

Our long calls have held up well by comparison (down 35.6%) so the position is profitable – even though SQQQ certainly went the wrong way.  That's because we sold more premium than we bought (being the house, NOT the gambler!).  But making a profit on paper doesn't do you any good unless you cash it in at some point.  Clearly we don't need to cash the short $30 calls as they are almost 200% above the current price so the Nasdaq would have to fall over 60% to put those in the money.  What we can do, is sell 100 of the Jan, 2022 20 calls at $1.70 ($17,000) and those will help pay for us to roll our 2022 $10 calls at $3.35 to the 2023 $10 calls at $4.80 for net $1.45 ($29,000).  

Now we've spent just net $12,000 and bought ourselves another year of protection (and another year to sell short calls) and when 2024 options come out (July), we will roll our 200 short 2023 calls to 100 short 2024 calls for about even and then we will be back in balance.  So we're risking that the market won't fall more than 30% between now and July but, if it does – we can simply buy more longs or buy back more of our short calls to blance things out again.  If the market continues to go up, all the short calls will go worthless and we'll sell some more to pay for the next roll of our long position.  

That's why, in the long-run, our hedges are far more cost-effective than they seem – because we are able to maintain them with relatively cheap adjustments.  This is a $400,000 spread but really we don't see SQQQ likely to go over $20 so we'll call it a $200,000 spread that we netted into for a $19,500 credit and now we're spending $12,000 to adjust it so STILL a free spead – and free protection for our long portfolio!

Going the opposite way, TQQQ is the ultra-long ETF for the Nasdaq and we are experimenting to see if we can make more money shorting that than being long SQQQ (the ultra-short).  

TQQQ Long Put 2022 21-JAN 100.00 PUT [TQQQ @ $105.36 $3.19] 20 12/7/2020 (287) $68,000 $34.00 $-12.78 $34.00     $21.23 $-1.13 $-25,550 -37.6% $42,450
TQQQ Short Put 2022 21-JAN 70.00 PUT [TQQQ @ $105.36 $3.19] -20 12/7/2020 (287) $-34,500 $17.25 $-7.70     $9.55 $-0.45 $15,400 44.6% $-19,100
TQQQ Short Put 2021 16-APR 80.00 PUT [TQQQ @ $105.36 $3.19] -7 3/12/2021 (7) $-3,500 $5.00 $-4.90     $0.11 $-0.10 $3,427 97.9% $-74

Here we spent net $30,000 on the $60,000 spread and the short April $80 puts will expire worthless and we could sell the June $85 puts for $5 but I'd rather do that on a pullback as they were $13 two weeks ago so, instead, let's spend $9.55 ($19,100) to buy back the short Jan $70 puts and, hopefully, we'll get a pullback that will allow us to replace them with better short puts on a pullback as well.

So what if there is no pullback?  Well then we would sell, perhaps, the Jan $90 puts for $16.50 ($37,000) and use that money to roll the Jan 100 puts at $21.25 to the Jan $120 puts at $32.50, for net $11.25 ($22,500).  That would leave us in a much higher put spread that's deeper in the money for net $4,600 out of pocket – an amount we can intantly make back on our next short put sale.  In fact, I like our backup plan almost better than our main plan of catching a well-timed pullback with our naked long puts – we'll see how this plays out!  

Have a great and well-hedged weekend, 

- Phil


Do you know someone who would benefit from this information? We can send your friend a strictly confidential, one-time email telling them about this information. Your privacy and your friend's privacy is your business... no spam! Click here and tell a friend!

Comments (reverse order)

    You must be logged in to make a comment.
    You can sign up for a membership or log in

    Sign up today for an exclusive discount along with our 30-day GUARANTEE — Love us or leave, with your money back! Click here to become a part of our growing community and learn how to stop gambling with your investments. We will teach you to BE THE HOUSE — Not the Gambler!

    Click here to see some testimonials from our members!

  1. Norway Wants Its Wealth Fund to Stop Adding Emerging Markets

  2. Good Morning.

  3. Good morning

  4. Good morning!

    PPI came in very hot at 1%, that's double what was expected and very inflationary.   That's for the month so 12% annualized pace is no bueno…  

    /NG just hit $2.55 so shame on you for not taking 1/2 off the table on a nickel run!   I'd set the stop on the rest at $2.54, a weak retrace of the 0.05.

    See how that works?  We didn't play /NG for months but then, when there was a good set-up, we jumped on it.  PATIENCE is the key to good trading!

    The Karate Kid - '80s Movie Guide

    Too bad our fellow citizens can't learn that lesson:

    The U.S. reported more than 79,000 new cases for Thursday, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University that was published early Friday. The data may update later. Not all states report data on new cases daily. Thursday’s figure was higher than the 75,038 reported for Wednesday and was similar to levels last seen in February, after the peak in daily caseloads reached in January, according to Johns Hopkins data.

    The seven-day average, which smooths out irregularities in data reporting, was 65,936 on Wednesday, while the 14-day average was 64,984, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. When the seven-day average is higher than the 14-day average, it indicates cases are rising. More than half of states are reporting higher seven-day averages than 14-day averages.

    Deliveries of Johnson & Johnson’s Covid-19 vaccine doses throughout the U.S. are expected to plunge by more than 80% next week, according to state officials and federal data, as J&J grapples with manufacturing challenges.

    The federal government has allocated just 700,000 doses of J&J’s vaccine to U.S. states, territories and certain cities and federal agencies next week, compared with 4.9 million doses that were allocated for this week, according to information posted online by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    The expected sharp decrease will complicate states officials’ mass vaccination plans at a time when they are counting on a greater supply of doses to help immunize the growing number of people becoming eligible.

    It isn’t clear why next week’s supply is decreasing so sharply, though federal officials have cautioned states there could be fluctuations week to week.

  5. Phil – Couple of things: 

    1. Talking of RIO from yesterday, they are also starting lithium mining ( Pilot-scale right now, but could be big in future years. 

    2. Looking to hedge – the TQQQ position looks interesting. Is it good for a new entry? Long Jan $120 puts, short Jan $90 Puts, and sell further puts if there is ever a pullback…

  6. Shortages everywhere, I dont understand where all this is coming from.  Microchips, ketchup, housing, bicycles ( went looking yesterday ) foam rubber ( daughter wanted new furniture, 6 month delivery due to foam shortage, she was told).  All this has to be very inflationary.   

  7. The GOP Is Voting Against Its Base

  8. TQQQ/Rn – What I like about it is that it decays regardless of what the Nasdaq does but you don't want to start out too aggressive as it's all about selling a large amount of premium.  Jan $110 puts are $27 and the Jan $90 puts are $17 so that's net $10 on the $20 spread so 100% gain if the Nas dips a little.  If you buy 15 of those for $15,000 you can start paying for it by selling 5 (1/3) of the June $80 puts for $4 ($2,000) and that's using 70 of your 285 days so 3 more sales like that knocks your net down to $2,000 and from that base you adjust when the opportunities present themselves.  

    Shortages/Stock – Yes but they are mostly supply shortages (disruptions) more so than demand shortages so they are, by definition, transitory.  There's no overall ketchup shortage – it's mostly because restaurants put those little packets in every delivery so imagine the waste compared to sitting at the table and using what you need from a bottle.  It's not like we ran out of tomatoes or vinegar.    But yes, we have supply chain issues all over the place and they take quarters (not months) to ripple through the system so 2021 will be a screwed up year and you can't fix it because adding more production without more demand would be foolish so we just have to ride things out until balance is restored to the force.  

    Of course, in the end, wasn't there like just one ship full of rebels left in the whole galaxy?  Is that really a victory?

    Vote Thanos 2024!  Get it over with!

    Thanos' Snap Was Originally Planned For Endgame |

  9. On the other hand, we now have monkeys playing brain pong – how cool is that?  

  10. Monkeys – Could be candidates to primary congressional republicants in 2022…. :)

  11. T discussions of yesterday still a good armchair play today. !!!!!!

  12. KMB also still a good play Yield 3.3% and a PE of 20. Stock and sell Jan22 135/140 strangle @ 17.90. Comb returns 1.64% pm

  13. Total Is Poised to Make $5 Billion Bet on Uganda Oil Project

  14. I'm curious, is there a way to organize tour TD/TOS account into different portfolios? I can't seem to figure out how to do this and tech support is no help.

  15. swampfox – From the Monitor tab you can right-click on your positions and "Move to Group". This is the only way I know is a single account. You can also just open multiple accounts and switch between them.

  16. 10-4. Thank you daveo. I've done that. The challenge is it doesn't carry the grouping over to the mobile app which I use more frequently than the desktop version. Maybe in a future release lol.

  17. This is what I received from TD today, I am a share holder but TD shows now zero shares in my acc. funny funny!!!



    CHINA MOBILE LIMITED has issued proxy materials for its ‌2021‌ ‌Annual Meeting‌ of shareholders.


    Your account ending in: *****1595


    Meeting Date: ‌April 29, 2021‌


    Record Date: ‌March 30, 2021‌


    CUSIP Number: ‌16941M109‌


    Control Number: ‌0205740230603886‌

  18. /swampfox – also in the Monitor tab you can change 'Arrange Positions' from instrument to Order..   I use instrument view to move my Puts together using move to group (PUTS) then change to arrange by order..   Move the BCS into another group (Spreads)..   The arrange by order will consolidate the trade option price and current option price.  

  19. TOS/Swamp – They certainly used to let you set up multiple accounts and switch between them with a pull-down on the upper left where it says Account Info.  That would be strange if they stopped doing that.

    CHL/Yodi – Maybe they will discuss their ADR situation.  

    That VIX is sure dying out.  Starting to miss Trump…

  20. IF you are a CHL bagholder, as I am, and a TD Ameritrade client, then please call 1-888-723-8505 and press 5 for the Restricted Stock department and raise some hell. TDA's complete lack of communication on this problem is astounding. I have made many phone calls and sent numerous emails to a various parties and departments and essentially, I am told in very proper "corporatese' that there is nothing they can do nor will do and I am on my own. 

  21. Just posting this for info…  If anyone has an AMEX (I have the Hilton Honors one) card you can basically get the Motley Fool "stock advisor" service for free for a year

    There is an "offer" in my AMEX account (you have to opt in) that gives me a $99 statement credit of if use my AMEX to purchase at least $99 at Motley Fool – and that's what "stock advisor" costs for the first year

    I signed up… so I'll see if they have any great insights

    If not…. it's free

  22. MF: They have a fairly limited universe of momo darlings and they keep issuing best buy now alerts on the same stocks over and over again, no matter how ridiculous the multiple is. To some extent MF generates its own returns by doing this, and I think that's a big part of their game. They control a herd of investors and they prod the herd's buying power into whatever stock they want to drive the price on. It's brilliant in a way and like everything else it will keep working until it doesn't. 

  23. swampfox: In the past at least, TOS/TDA would give you multiple account numbers. I have two IRA account numbers and one non-IRA account and I can trade in any or all of them.

  24. Has BYND ever been discussed? Bottom of the 6 month range, earning 5/4/21

  25. Just to add BYND, they have been trying to bring costs down, but meat is now the most expensive I've ever experienced. Im mostly "carnivore". Not something I would personally ingest, but the stock pops and drops on a regular basis. 

  26. CHL/Pstas – BS, you can complain to the SEC on that.  You own the ADR stock, they have to let you transfer it to a broker that will help you move it to China and sell it if you wish to.  They don't get to walk away from things that are inconvenient for them.

    While the Biden administration is unlikely to reverse the executive order, OFAC could tweak it to address difficulties in divesting the targeted securities—potentially allowing investors to hold them in a blocked account until sanctions are removed or the company is removed from the list.

    In the past, OFAC has fine-tuned actions by offering licenses to allow U.S. entities to wind down transactions related to those targeted by sanctions, which could be another possibility. But investors could still run into trouble finding market makers to divest, Smith said.

    So what are investors’ options? For starters, investors should stay in touch with brokerages. Several brokerage firms told Barron’s they alerted clients in advance of the order going into effect and stressed they were monitoring a situation that continues to be fluid. For those who still own the ADRs and work with the handful of big brokerages that allow direct access to foreign markets, like Hong Kong, converting the ADRs into those local shares and then divesting before the November deadline is one option.

    Indeed, Interactive Brokers said clients still holding the delisted ADRs had two choices: Convert the ADR to the underlying shares that trade in Hong Kong or wait until the sanctions end and the New York Stock Exchange relists the securities. When—or even whether—the latter will happen is an open question, though the three Chinese telecoms have asked the NYSE to review its decision.

    Charles Schwab told investors it would try to work with them to sell a position “on a best efforts basis” but said it couldn’t guarantee execution “because liquidity providers are no longer making markets in many of these securities.”

    For the impacted ADRs, a Schwab spokeswoman said the firm can facilitate cancellation into the foreign ordinary shares, but clients would have to locate a firm that can still facilitate liquidation because Schwab doesn’t have liquidity providers making markets in these shares.

    TD Ameritrade cautioned investors ahead of the order going into effect that they may not be able to liquidate shares if they continued to hold them. For clients still holding these stocks, TD Ameritrade says they could transfer them to another broker-dealer, though they ask clients to submit transfer requests by Aug. 2.

    Better yet, talk to Barron's or other people who write on this and tell them what's happening – makes a good story that TD will not want to have told.

    BYND/Kustomz – That was our first "Future is Now Portfolio" pick last year.  It took off so fast we cashed it in.  Now they've had some time to settle in, we have to decide whether it's worth $8.5Bn at $130 to buy a company with $500M in sales and a $30M loss.   I made the bullish case for them when they were at $50:

    Submitted on 2019/12/12 at 12:51 pm

    BYND/Pirate – You'd a better trader than I am if you're making money on the long side of this:

    Still, back at $75 I do like them again.  That's $4.5Bn and they'll do $500M next year in sales but the average American consumes 222.2 lbs of meat per year (including chicken), which seems insane but…  

    Americans are set to eat more meat in 2018 than ever before. According to data published by the US Department of Agriculture (USDA), consumers are expected to eat 222.2 pounds (100.8 kilo) of red meat and poultry this year, up from 216.9 pounds per person in 2017. That will surpass the previous record of 221.9 pounds per person, set in 2004, Bloomberg reports. The predicted increase is ending a trend of falling meat consumption that began with the Great Recession in 2008. In 2014, the consumption of red meat and poultry was still down at 201.8 pounds per capita before it started to climb steadily, reaching 211.1 pounds in 2015 and 214.6 in 2016. The figure predicted for 2018 corresponds to a meat intake of roughly 10 ounces (or 280 grams) per day, almost double the amount recommended by government nutritionists. According to USDA’s Choose MyPlate nutrition guidelines, adults should not eat more than 5 to 6 ounces of meat per day.

    The popularity of dairy products, for example cheese and butter, has also increased to an all-time high, the USDA figures reveal. Domestic meat production is on the rise as well. The total production of red meat and poultry is expected to reach about 103.5 billion pounds in 2018, compared with 97.6 billion pounds in 2016. (ab)

    So 100Bn pounds at $2 a pound is $200Bn and let's say plants get to $40Bn in 10 years and BYND has 10% of that market so $4Bn – that seems to justify $4.5Bn as they should make much more than $225M selling that (economies of scale, etc).  So, when a Company of the Future can easily grow into conservative estimates – I have to like the play – even if it's a bit ahead of the curve now.

    Certainly I like BYND enough to sell 2022 $60 puts for $14.50 to net in for $45.50, which is 40% below the current price so let's make that the first trade of the Future is Now Portfolio:

    • Sell 5 BYND 2022 $60 puts for $14.50 ($7,250)

    Now we have $107,250 to start with though the margin is a rude $7,500 as BYND is so crazy – otherwise I would have sold 10.  

    Submitted on 2019/12/26 at 2:51 pm

    BYND/Stock – One of our Stocks of the Future.   That's a list we have to get back to accumulating after New Year's.  They actually made $5M last Q and, while that's a mile from justifying a $4.7Bn valuation at $76, they are manufacturers and should scale up well and they have been supply-constrained in sales with growing demand so I think they do $600M next year and make $100M and that's still 47x but I think they cover it by 2022 easily and they can grow from there (fish, chicken, pork, better meat) so I like them for a long-term accumulate – starting with short 2022 $60 puts at $14 – that's a net $46 entry (26% off) as a worst case. 

    December 26th, 2019 at 2:51 pm | (Unlocked) | Permalink

    BYND/Stock – One of our Stocks of the Future.   That's a list we have to get back to accumulating after New Year's.  They actually made $5M last Q and, while that's a mile from justifying a $4.7Bn valuation at $76, they are manufacturers and should scale up well and they have been supply-constrained in sales with growing demand so I think they do $600M next year and make $100M and that's still 47x but I think they cover it by 2022 easily and they can grow from there (fish, chicken, pork, better meat) so I like them for a long-term accumulate – starting with short 2022 $60 puts at $14 – that's a net $46 entry (26% off) as a worst case. 

    Future is Now Portfolio Review:  We don't need to add money to this one as we didn't spend much.  $89,235 is down 10% but not so terrible and we'll certainly look to add some stuff next week.

    • BYND – They came down hard and fast, now below the IPO price and fortunately we only committed to 5 short puts so now we are free to roll our 5 short 2022 $60 puts at $23.50 ($11,750) to 10 2021 (202 ONE) $50 puts at $12.50 ($12,500) and we can buy 10 2022 $40 ($30)/65 ($21) bull call spreads at $9 ($9,000).  That puts us in the $25,000 spread for net $1,000 as we sold the original puts for $7,250 and this is why we are happy to sell those short puts in the LTP – THIS is the downside – the stock finally gets near our target price (net $45.50) and, rather than panic – we roll into a LOVELY bull call spread where we make $24,000 (2,400%) if BYND can get back to 60% of it's IPO price in the next two years.

    That's our process!  This is why we made such ridiculous gains in the last round of portfolios.  We sell puts for good prices at small commitments and then we take advantage when the market sells off (it often does) or, if not, we just collect the short put money and sell more puts with the occasional bargain play.  It's the "bargain" plays that get us in trouble – not the early stage short puts.  The problem is everyone is too impatient and wants to deploy all their capital right away and that's a terrible thing to do.  Let's try to remember that the next time everyone wants to chase the rallies!  

    NOTHING has changed about BYND and people will still eat fake meat after the virus is over (and probably while it's around too).  You have to consider whether there's a rational reason to throw out your investing premise just because of whatever current crisis we're in.  If not – that's when you take advantage of that.  That's all Buffett does – he keeps calm when the market dips and buys more of what's worth buying while other people are panicking out.

    That was all a lot of Dollars ago so sure, I can see them at $4Bn in sales and $400M in profits down the road but that's what's priced in at this level so it's certainly not a bargain anymore.  Could turn out to be a fun Butterfly play with all the range-bound volatility.

  27. Swamp I have a couple of TDA accounts that I can see together in the app but I had to link them (different from adding to group and I do not recall the process)

  28. Phil! Thank you for the repost, exactly the insight I was looking for. 

  29. Phil-I posted about   BYND  as I thought it was a  winner and  still do. Of course you can make money-it goes up and down, but they are expanding their products to sausage like meats, breakfast meats and it is found in many restaurants. That meat figure is probably not wrong,, however there are many who eat very little meat  or non at all. In this area  60%  of men have Bmi's of 32.7 with almost  60 lbs to lose. Women were  30.5 Bmi. This was in St  Louis county which is Duluth Mn. It is  only one of many reasons to limit meat in the diet. Average weight for men is 241 women 178. This comes from a website called  DietSpotlight which highlights the obesity problems not to even mention health problems.

  30. CHL- Phil, thanks for the tip- I have emailed both Barron's and WSJ. I am not a social media user but is there some platform on which we could post commentary giving TDA a sharp kick? 

    By the way, you have in the past left the impression of having some well placed political contacts. I have emailed my Congressman but so far no response. Seems to me that executive orders are both written in and out. 

  31. Take a look at the May VXX. Wow-haven't seen a play like that in awhile. 22K calls and more than dble that 0n 9 and 10  puts!

  32. I have moved my CHL ADR shares to IB, and am now converting them to regular… least I think I am…. :)

  33. June Vxx has well over 100K Puts bet 8-13! Now I am interested.  Who is expecting what?

  34. CHL – Fidelity is converting ADRs to HK stock. Just contact their international trader service at 800-544-2976

  35. rn273 CHL Fidelity  but I trust one has to have an account with them ? Right?

  36. Have a great weekend everyone!

    I'll catch up on comments later (had some calls). 

    - Phil

  37. CHL/Fidelity/TD/IBKR - when one opens an account, one can open by depositing cash or one can transfer the assets. This feature is available so you don't have to produce a taxable event or be out of the market while the transfer is happening. So yeah you have to have an account but you should be able to open it with your CHL shares. Except maybe you want to just move everything while you're at it. 

  38. What a blast off into the close! 

    This is why you take the money and run:

  39. Pharm-great news. If that works, I will be right behind you :)


  40. I am not sure if this has any impact on the matter, but I feel we should try a combined effort here. What do all involved feel????

    Emai to TDA

    I have noticed that our 2400 shares of China Mobile (CHL) held in account XXXXXX have now mysterious disappeared from our account. Surely they cannot go up in thin air, especially as China Mobil, is not gone bankrupt and is trading very well in other countries of the world. 
    We just received a voting notification from your company, obviously as we, the certified owners of the shares, you as our broker holding IN TRUST our shares certificates. 
    From our trading club, we have many members, using your company as trading broker, and some have reported quite some unpleasant treatment by your company in respect of CHL. 
    It was now from some members suggested to bring your handling of the matter by your company to the attention of the SEC. 
    I sincerely trust that these steps are not necessary, and expect you will assist us in this matter. Our 2400 shares, as I understand have presently an approximate value of about 32 x 2400 = 76,800 US $ for us at the Hong Kong stock exchange. This is obviously no chicken fee for us. I see only the Jan 23 5 short puts are held against us, even they are OTM it shows a debit of over 50$ per option. 
    As a customer of your company for many years and more than XXXX dollars in our three accounts, we trust you will resolve this matter, like other brokers do, in a speedy and businesslike manner.
    Looking forward to hear from you by return of email,

  41. This prompt reply from TDA


    I have reviewed your account and would be happy to help.

    While I understand it can be frustrating when companies like CHL were delisted from the NYSE, these decisions are in the hands of the exchanges alone and brokerage firms are only allowed to process information that is laid out in the regulatory filing.

    On 31 Dec 2020, the NYSE announced it would be delisting the following Chinese telecommunications securities as soon as 7 Jan 2021, retracted this decision on 4 Jan 2021, and then again delisted these securities on 6 Jan 2021:
    China Mobile Ltd. (Symbol CHL)
    China Telecom (Symbol CHA)
    China Unicom (Symbol CHU)?

    TDA restricted these securities to closing transactions only on January 4, 2021 in order to comply with our regulators, exchanges and Executive Order 13959 of November 12, 2020 (Addressing the Threat from Securities Investments that Finance Communist Chinese Military Companies).

    At this time, we will not be able to supercede these regulations and I encourage you to research these issues with the company itself, the NYSE, and the executive order to which firms like ours are held.

    We appreciate your business and would like you to stay with TD Ameritrade for years to come. If you have any other questions about your investments, strategies, goals, or the resources available to you, simply let us know. We're here to help.

    Have a great day.

    Haley Shrabel
    Assistant Manager
    Client Services

    TD Ameritrade

  42. Yodi- you have gotten the same runaround/obfuscation response as I have received from my numerous complaints. Once again, they are skirting the issue. Yes, the order is the order and they are sorry about that but you are on your own. Bottom line is they are hands off and will not work to find a solution. I am starting to think that there is something about this situation that has them spooked as it makes no sense to just leave long time clients in the dust. Just speculating but perhaps there is some China related business transaction(s) that has them intimidated. 

    One additional suggestion for you and others is following up on Phil's tip re: contacting news organizations. I wrote to Barron's but no reply as yet. I wrote to the WSJ and received a prompt and polite reply saying they would look in to it. Could have been just a polite brush off but more people shaking the tree may get more action. The reporter who responded is Dawn Lim- email

    Email for Barron's is –

  43. TD is full of crap, if you actually read the regulation, it says:  

    (b) Notwithstanding subsection (a)(i) of this section, purchases for value or sales made on or before 11:59 p.m. eastern standard time on November 11, 2021, solely to divest, in whole or in part, from securities that any United States person held as of 9:30 a.m. eastern standard time on January 11, 2021, in a Communist Chinese military company as defined in section 4(a)(i) of this order, are permitted

    By refusing to let you transact, TD should be held responsible for any damages incurred – and I would certainly have my lawyer write a letter informing them of such.

  44. Thanks Fellows for the comments. I am not sure how many other people on this board still hold shares of CHL, but I think we should group together, gives us much more say. Here my initial reply to there email obove.

     Haley Shrabel,
    We thank you for your answer. The facts you explained, initiated by a self-centered Tyron are very clear to us. However you failed to explain to us, where are our share certificates? As we know the company China Mobile is in a healthy state and trading, so the documents cannot have gone up in thin air!
     Other brokers are assisting their clients to resolve this matter, but as per your comments, your company does not show any interest to do this.  Regret to say, that this is not only our impression, but also the statement from other clients of yours known to us 
    Obviously it shows that your company does not value customers as other brokers do. Possible you do not wish to maintain customers in the first place any more. 
    We request you to confirm the whereabouts of our share certificates, so we can make the necessary steps of establishing a better broker. Regretfully to say after all your many changes, the original TOS Company has very much deteriorated in valuing customers. Actually if I was an employee of TDA I would be worried about my future in this company.
    Looking forward to hear from you via email,

  45. Pstas, Thank you for your comments. I am not to familiar with some of the US abriviations so what WSJ stands for and what can they do to help?

  46. CHL/Pharm - Please note that when I opened up an IB Account to transfer CHL from TD, they would not accept a transfer of the CHL ADR.  Perhaps because I wasn't an existing customer…I recently opened a new account with them.  IB required me to convert the ADR to the underlying security within my TD account and they would accept that transfer.  TD has since executed the conversion of the ADR to the underlying security and I'm in the process of transferring those now to IB…like you, at least I think I am!

  47. CHL/Yodi – Like you, I have struggled with TD as well.  All they are willing to tell you in their messaging is that they cannot sell the ADR at this time.  TD did convert the ADR to the underlying security, which has allowed me to transfer those shares into an IB account where I will be able to sell them on the HK stock exchange.  You just need to have an account with a broker that will sell securities on foreign exchanges.  IB will sell them (again, the underlying security) and so will Fidelity. 

  48. BuckeyeMag

    Thanks for the information. I just have started to open an account with IB. Still have to iron out some details with IB.

    here a follow up  on correspondence with TDA. I must say I sent the email Sunday Morning Euro time and did receive this reply by 10 AM NY time. But still no results. What does ADR actually stands for?


    Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention. My name is Sam, and I would be happy to assist you.

    To clarify, the certificates are held in book-entry form – this means that there are no physical share certificates. We are unable to hold these shares or allow trading on them, but you are able to transfer the shares to a foreign brokerage firm that is not held to US Executive Orders. The position in your account shows the number of shares you have, and any book-entry certificates would be transferred with the shares. I hope this answers your questions! Please reach back out to us with any other questions or concerns.

    We greatly appreciate your business and know you have a choice where you invest. If there is anything else we can do for you, or could have done better, please let us know. 

    We look forward to serving your needs for years to come. 


    Samantha St. Clair
    Client Services

  49. Yodi- WSJ stands for Wall Street Journal which is the major business/investing publication. 

    ADR stands for American Depository Receipt. As I understand it, foreign companies wishing to trade on the US exchanges have arrangements with a US financial institution (such as Bank of New York) whereby the foreign company's shares are deposited with the US institution which in turn issues a certificate (ADR) which is proxy for the actual shares. In the case of CHL, I believe each CHL ADR represents 5 CHL actual shares. 

  50. Buckeye- can you tell me who or what department you dealt with to initiate the CHL ADR conversion to the underlying shares? I take it from your comments that TDA has already made the conversion within your TDA account? If so, that is just infuriating and baffling as this action was not suggested by any of the numerous TDA people I talked to. 

  51. ADR/Pstas – This was from Buckeye last week:

    CHL -  I thought I'd share my adventure in liquidating the CHL I still have with TD Ameritrade.  I have an extra hurdle because the holdings are in a Self-managed 401k account, but it can be done.  Do not underestimate how long all of this takes.  I've been at it since the beginning of February (trying to find the right people to make this happen, while working and not having a lot of time during the day) and I'm only in the middle of Step 3.

    1. Convert the CHL ADRs to the underlying security, which trades on the Hang Seng.  I forget the technical term that they call this, but there is a special group within TD support that can initiate the transaction (the exchange is 5 for 1.)

    2.  I opened an account with Interactive Brokers (Rollover IRA since it's coming from a 401k).  You need a broker that trades securities on foreign exchanges.  Fidelity also does and I believe Schwab does as well.

    3. "Transfer the position", initiated from my IB account, which pulls the converted CHL securities (0941.HK) from TD into IB.  By the way, TD's ticker for the HK shares is CHLKF.

    4. Sell 0941.HK in the IB account.

    Same as we had said when it first became an issue:

    54.8 HKD is $7.07 USD but an ADR share of CHL is worth 5 Common Shares.  This clears with Bank of NY Mellon, who are the depository for China Mobile ADRs.  You can get the ADR shares from your broker, then get the ordinary shares from BK and then go to China to cash them in.  cheeky

    Also useful at the time:

    Submitted on 2021/01/11 at 1:54 pm

    ADR/Yodi – Means "Advanced Depository Receipt" – what you buy on a US exchange is a US certificate that represents a certain number of shares on a foreign exchange.  Most Asian companies are not direct-listed but are ADRs.  In the case of CHL, the underlying security is held by the broker and you can demand the conversion from the broker.  If a lot of people do this – it can cause a squeeze, in fact.  

    On CHL, by the way, if you have shares and don't want to wait to see what Biden will do, you can convert the ADR shares to the underlying traded on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange – it's 5 shares per ADR share with the symbol 941:HK.  They are up 5.7% today as the panic-selling in the US has stopped. It's something you need to talk to your brokers about – rules may be different.

  52. CHL/pstas – I found my notes the other day. For TD Ameritrade call 888-723-8504. Option #4 – Transfers Department. You are wanting to "surrender" your ADRs. This will initiate the conversion process to the underlying securities. It takes 10-15 for BNY to convert them since they are the bank that holds the all of the underlying securities for ADR issuance. 

  53. CHL/pstas continued – Then it will take another 30 days for TD Ameritrade to receive and post the actual China Mobile shares.  At that point you can initiate a transfer over to your brokerage of choice where you can sell them on the HK Stock Exchange (Ticker 0941.HK).

  54. Again "brokerage of choice" from what I've come to know is Interactive Brokers and Fidelity (there could be others, but definitely not TD) which allow trading on foreign stock exchanges. 

  55. Buckeye- thx.